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| Muslim follow up | |
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| Topic Started: Dec 18 2007, 02:05 PM (638 Views) | |
| Post #1 Dec 18 2007, 02:05 PM |
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I couldn't remember which thread I had posted that I would follow up on the Muslim question when I returned from the Union for Reform Judaism's Biennial so I started a new thread. One of the most publicized speakers in attendance at the URJ's Biennial was Dr. Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America (the first female serving in that capacity). Last August Dr. Mattson invited URJ's Rabbi Eric Yoffie to become the first major Jewish leader to address her organization, an umbrella group of eight Muslim organizations. A reciprcal invitation led to Mattson speaking to a packed room at the biennial's final plenary on Sunday. Here is an excerpt form a URJ press release about the presentation: Her faced swathed in an Islamic headscarf, Mattson spoke in a clipped and sober tone about the Muslim constituencies in North America she represents and their readiness to engage in dialogue with Jews. ISNA and the URJ are launching a series of dialogues that are pairing up 10 mosques and synagogues around the country. Though she never once paused for an applause line, the URJ crowd could barely suppress their impulse to cheer her on. They applauded when she talked about the Muslim responsibility to confront the terrorists and extremists in their midst. They rose to their feet when she promised to confront any Muslim who denies the truth of the Holocaust. And, betraying the crowd's liberal inclinations, they cheered when she said it what possible to support the Palestinians without being anti-Jewish. "It is our responsibility to reclaim Islam from the terrorists and the extremists," Mattson said. "That is why American Muslims have been public in our views on terrorism and extremism in the name of our religion." Mattson said ISNA had published the fatwas, press releases, articles and books denouncing Muslim extremism. She also compared negative caricatures of Muslims in the media to the demonization of Jews by Nazi propaganda. Though she stressed she does not fear a Muslim Holocaust in America, she believes the stereotyping of Muslims accounts for the failure of most Americans to protest waterboarding and other forms of torture against Muslim detainees. I truly belive that Muslims and the Islam faith are being lumped together with extremists. I wouldn't want Christians being lumped in with the KuKlux Klan and other neo Nazi groups. I wouldn't want all Jews judged by the actions of individuals like Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss or almost cultish extremist groups such as the Neturei Karta. I in turn do not want to blame a whole people or a whole faith based on thier fringe extremists who promote hate and terrorism. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #2 Jan 2 2008, 04:16 PM |
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An audio and a text version of her speech is on the URJ's biennial site. I couldn't get the link thing to work, so, here is the url: http://blogs.rj.org/biennial/2007/12/talki...k_together.html |
Civil Servant
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| Post #3 Jan 2 2008, 07:40 PM |
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I see a distinction between Muslims and most other religions, not just Christianity and Judaism. Their religious text specifically calls for the deaths of infidels. For that reason, I start from the assumption that any given Muslim is anti-Jew and anti-Christian (possibly, not necessarily, violently so) and let them prove me wrong. I hope that does not sound prejudiced. It is reasoned, based upon what the Koran says, and practical, based upon actual events. I used to think of Islam as another religion recognizing the God of Abraham. I no longer feel that way. |
Administrator
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| Post #4 Jan 2 2008, 11:38 PM |
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Couldn't Muslims believe Christians and Jews want to kill them based on the numerous transgressions for which the Bible declares death as the penalty, including references to following other prophets, worshipping other gods or sacrificing to Molech, etc? I choose to take these either metaphorically or as outgrown (as do many Christians and Jews). So, why can't Muslims be taking similar passages in the Quran as such? Ceratinly Dr. Ingrid Mattson, president of the Islamic Society of North America, seems to be a pacifist who does not promote killing people of other faiths anymore than any mainstream minister, priest or rabbi. there is a huge difference between mainstream and fanatic in any religion. Deuteronomy 13:5 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God2If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, Deuteronomy 17:2-5 2I f there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, 3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel: 5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die Leviticus 20:27 27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them Levitcus 20:2 2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #5 Jan 3 2008, 12:40 AM |
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CT - good point. However, there are three things to be said RE: Christians and the Law. 1 - The Scriptures teach that with the coming of Christ, the "nation" of Israel ceased to be merely a political geographic entity and became a spiritual entity without border or ethnic boundary, this is referred to as 'The Kingdom of God' more broadly, and 'The Church' more specifically. (Actually, we believe it has always been such, but was focused on a single nation until the Messiah came). As such, when the "jurisdiction" of God went beyond the single nation, the laws governing that particular jurisdiction ceased to apply. But this concerns only the case law, generally speaking. Which is much of what you quoted. 2 - Scripture also teaches that the Ceremonial Law is all fulfilled in Christ (sacrificial system, cleanliness laws, kosher, etc..). He, being the Son of God, was the ultimate sacrifice, as only an eternal being could be a suitable sacrifice to make true atonement for sin, which deserves an eternal punishment. This makes things like sacrifice and dietary restrictions null, because all are clean in Him. This doesn't necessarily have bearing on the present point you make, but should be said in periphery, as it concerns other portions of Hebrew law. 3 - The only thing that remains is the Moral Law (10 Commandments) and these we follow, not as a way TO life, as if by following them we might earn our way to heaven, but as a way OF life, having been given the eternal gift of life, we respond in gratitude with obedience. I know that none of this changes the fact that those verses are still in the Bible, and so I am probably proving your point more than anything. They may theologize their way around these things. However, as far as my understanding takes me, there is no such paradigm shift in Islam as there is in Christianity viz a viz Judaism. And I just re-read this and an not certain I am making any sense at all, but have put too much time into it not to hit the POST button :-) Do with it what you like! hehe... |
Civilian
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| Post #6 Jan 3 2008, 01:22 AM |
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I do not know how they theologize it, but I believe most Muslims are good people, not terrorists nor are the vast majority of them seeking infidel blood. More than my fear of terrorists is my fear of the USA branding Muslims an evil that must be eradicated - reminiscent of Germany and the Jews. I am impressed with the URJ's approach to the issue and am pleased with the positive reponse from the Muslim world. http://urj.org/muslimdialogue/ |
Civil Servant
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| Post #7 Jan 3 2008, 01:24 AM |
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| And, yes, Gentry, you were making sense. Well, I am a little nonsensical myself all the time, let alone at 1:27AM, so perhaps I am not the best judge... |
Civil Servant
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| Post #8 Jan 3 2008, 01:59 PM |
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I definitely agree that the vast majority are not violent people. But I would also argue that the ones who are violent are the most consistent in their faith. Islam is ultimately a religion of death, based on their means of salvation. I would recommend the link I posted in the religion section. |
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| Post #9 Jan 3 2008, 05:08 PM |
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Gentry gave an excellent explanation why the passages you cited could not possibly mean for Christians to kill members of other faiths. However, being Jewish, that doesn't spare your Bible from the potential counter-argument that you point out that could be raised against it. Two things, though: 1. The verses you raise are not specific instructions to kill or convert all Muslims. 2. I don't see those passages as instructing anyone to go around the world seeking people of other faiths (specific or non-specific) to kill them. I see them as instructions as to how to deal with people turning Israel against God from within His nation of Israel. |
Administrator
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| Post #10 Jan 3 2008, 11:33 PM |
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My point is that these verses are not taken at face value in this age (they have been theologized beyond the immediate impression the words convey) and I wonder if verses oft quoted from the Quran are ancient verses also theologized past the immediate impression the words would seem to convey. More than my fear of terrorists is my fear of the USA branding Muslims an evil that must be eradicated - reminiscent of Germany and Jews who supposedly believed in sacrificng children and planned to take over the world. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #11 Jan 4 2008, 05:17 PM |
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| Nah. The meanings of the passages I have heard are pretty plain, no theologizing needed. The terrorists who are killing Jews and Christians are doing what the plain language of the Koran tells them to do. It takes theologizing to downplay the plain language or change its obvious intent. |
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| Post #12 Jan 4 2008, 11:51 PM |
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| There are some pretty violent passages in the bible, too. But if I understand Christianity correctly, something that came later (the New testament) changes it. Likewise most branches of Judaism have additional texts that change the interpertation of the earlier one. Perhaps Islam does, too? I am researching that. I have some contacts that are trying to put me in touch with some Islamic educators. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #13 Jan 5 2008, 10:23 AM |
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Again, there is a qualitative difference. The Bible doesn't contain ongoing explicit instructions to seek out members of other faiths (named faiths) and kill them if they won't convert. I think Islam, as the Koran preaches it, is dangerous. Dangerous to millions. Dangerous to the world. I don't see any biblically-based religion posing any such danger. |
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