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| Drug Use | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 21 2007, 12:11 PM (582 Views) | |
| Post #1 Nov 21 2007, 12:11 PM |
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Over in the Politics Forum, Eye95 disagreed with Obama's admission of drug use. If you used illegal drugs and/or alcohol as a youth, what (if anything) would you say about it to your children? I've never done illegal drugs and only drank (under-age) while in college. When it comes time to talk about drugs and alcohol with my son (currently, age 5), I plan on being honest with him. |
Civilian
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| Post #2 Nov 21 2007, 12:57 PM |
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Saying anything to one's children, while they are children, about any significant behavioral indiscretions of one's youth is morally wrong and just plain stupid. It sends the implied, but irrevocable, message that the children can do equally stupid things and everything can turn out alright as happened for the parent. It increases the probability that the behavior will be repeated by the children. When a parent uses his bad behavior to illustrate what not to do, he is probably giving himself a feel-good-about-me moment at the expense of his child. How selfish. |
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| Post #3 Nov 21 2007, 01:38 PM |
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| So if you used drugs and little Johnny (who is, say 16 years old) asked you, "Dad, did you ever use drugs (or drink or have sex) when you were my age, what do you say? I thought that honesty was the policy? If you're evasive as a parent, I the kid is going to pick up on it and not be trusting of the parent in return. |
Civilian
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| Post #4 Nov 21 2007, 01:41 PM |
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I have to disagree with Eye95. I didn't talk to my daughter about my drug and alcohol use and when she tried drugs, after years of telling me she never would, she was afraid to talk to me about it, because she thought I was a goody-two-shoes. Had she known, it's very possible she would have had her friends call me when she almost OD'd. You can tell your kids in a way that doesn't glorify it. And just maybe if I'd told my daughter about the dangers and how bad drugs are for you, maybe, just maybe, she wouldn't have tried them. I came very close to loosing my daughter to a drug OD. If, my talking to her would have prevented her from ever trying them, it would have been so much better for her. I have raised my daughter with complete honesty about the majority of my younger years with out too many details. She sees me as human. And she's willing to talk to me about what's going on in her life. Now before anyone starts telling me I shouldn't have done it the way I did. Get one thing straight - I raised MY daughter the way I saw fit. She turned out good. I get compliments from my peers on how nice and considerate she is of others. And we have a very close relationship even though we live in different states. We actually RESPECT each other for the person they are. Not just because I'm the mom and she's the daughter - but we would actually be friends if we weren't already related by blood. To me, that says a lot. I would have enjoyed that close of a relationship with either one of my parents. And don't get me wrong - she knows I'm the MOM and she still minds me even at 21. Everyone has different parenting techniques, because each person is unique. What works with one kid, may not work with another kid. Sure there are some basics - manners, respect, politeness. But I still think if I'd had more than one kid, I would not have raised them the same, since each kid would be it's own individual being. |
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| Post #5 Nov 21 2007, 01:47 PM |
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BadRabbit, Good point. We finally seem to agree on something. A point about honesty: my daughter asked me repeatedly at one time when she was telling me all the lies she'd told - "so you never lied to me?" NO!, never. She asked this about 4 or 5 times. I finally broke down - OK, I lied about Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. She never lied to me again after understanding and knowing I how felt about lying. If you expect your kid to be honest with you, you dang well better be honest with them. Why do they have to tell the truth, if you, the parent is lying to them? I was raised with double standards, my brothers could do "X" but I couldn't. And it wasn't because I was a girl, except some of the stuff I wasn't allowed to do. I hated it and I refused to raise my daughter that way. As an ADULT I had rights and privileges my daughter did not have. It gave her a reason to grow up. But if I didn't allow her to lie, she wasn't expected to accept my lies. |
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| Post #6 Nov 21 2007, 04:52 PM |
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First of all, if you have been a parent all along, the scenario you raise almost surely does not happen. However, if it does the context is important. The context in which a child challenges a parent is usually when the parent has confronted the child. In which case, the appropriate response would be, "Stop trying to deflect. The issue is your behavior. That is what we will discuss. That is what we will deal with." Now, should it come up in ordinary conversation (again, highly unlikely, if one has been parenting all along and the child has zero confusion as to your absolute non-acceptance of certain behavior), then the answer is the one I recommended earlier: "You might as well not bother asking any questions about my behavior as a child, from unreturned library books, to traffic tickets, to fights, and to anything more serious. I simply will not discuss them with you. I am the parent. You are the child. When molding your behavior is no longer a concern for me--say, when you are 40--we can have whatever frank discussion you want. Until then, we will discuss only what acceptable behavior is in general and your behavior in specific. Anyone else's behavior (including brothers, sisters, Mom, Dad, aunts, uncles, grandparents, etc.) is just plain off the table." That answer will leave "Johnny" totally without information as to anything you did right or wrong. As he should be. The parent's behavior is irrelevant. |
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| Post #7 Nov 21 2007, 05:07 PM |
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A few points about lying, which is a much overused and abused word. 1. Telling young children about Santa or the Easter Bunny is not lying. Neither is passing along any other legend or folk tale. Young children like the easy explanation of where these gifts come from, and they actually benefit from the moral lesson that they should always behave as if someone were watching and assigning the word "nice" or the word "naughty" to their behaviors. At some point in time, the child comes to realize that these creatures cannot be. Generally speaking, this knowledge, properly imparted, leaves them with the sense of having grown up some, and decidedly not the sense that they have been lied to. Calling these childhood stories "lies" does a disservice to the parent and to the child. 2. Choosing not to discuss some things, as they are irrelevant and even harmful, is also not lying. Saying you did not do something, that you did, is. Which is why, to avoid ever making any bad behavior more palatable, parents should not discuss their childhood behavior with their children, whether or not their behavior, in any regard, was regrettable. None, zero, zip, zilch, nada, repeat NONE of a parent's childhood behaviors, good or bad, should be discussed with a child still being raised, none. But, the point is that that is NOT lying. It is remaining focused on useful conversations and avoiding delving into discussions that, while they may provide catharsis for the adult, ultimately will harm the child. And, the child is the focus, not the parent. |
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| Post #8 Nov 21 2007, 05:20 PM |
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The problem is not that, if a parent participated in any bad behavior and shares that behavior with the child, then the behavior would be glorified, but that the behavior would become palatable. The child would very naturally think, "Well, Mom (or Dad) did it, and they turned out OK. So, why shouldn't I try it?" If you had left your daughter with the impression (or flat-out told her) that you had not done drugs, then, yes, that would be a lie, and might make you appear to be a goody-two-shoes. However, refusing to discuss your childhood behavior will decidedly not leave your child with that impression. It will leave them with the impression that you are the much wiser adult and that they are the child that knows relatively little about life and who should (but, still won't always) listen to your advice. The way you get a child to trust you, in the event that they should do something stupid and need to trust you, is not to lay bare all of your transgressions, but to, over the years, establish yourself as a person whom they know is a just and honest person who is totally focused on helping them develop into a healthy, happy, wise, and moral adult. You don't achieve that by creating the impression that you are or were weak, too. Children need to have the impression that the adults in their lives are somehow wiser and more rockish than they. I strongly doubt that your daughter did not come to you because you had never confided your transgressions. Having done so would make you less the person the will look to to be the rock when they need one to hang on to during stormy times. Kids don't really want or need friends or confidantes. They need rock-solid parents who are parents every second. |
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| Post #9 Nov 22 2007, 08:08 AM |
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Eye95, My daughter TOLD ME WHY SHE DIDN'T COME TO ME. EXACTLY WHAT I WROTE. I had no intention of telling her all the gory details (transgressions) of my wild and crazy youth, but she had not one shred of data about my drug use. Please DO NOT DOUBT ME OR MY DAUGHTER - YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER ONE OF US. AND YOU BASICALLY CALLED BOTH OF US A LIAR. |
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| Post #10 Nov 22 2007, 09:17 AM |
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I called no one a liar. (As I have to keep pointing out, that word is grossly overused.) I am sorry if anyone got that impression, but I most emphatically did not say it and have zero intention of communicating that. I still strongly doubt that she did not come to you because you had never told her about your drug use. Note, I am not saying that she did not say so. I am also not saying that she doesn't, on some level, believe her rationale to be true. I am simply saying that I strongly doubt that she did not come to you because you had never told her about your drug use. And, I do still doubt that. |
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| Post #11 Nov 22 2007, 03:25 PM |
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Eye95, I really just don't understand you. Do you really not take people at their word? My daughter said straight to my face - "I was afraid to tell you about my doing drugs because I thought you were a goody-two-shoes. I was afraid that you'd get really mad at me". Those were her words. (Knowing my daughter the way that I do - I can understand her being afraid to tell me about something bad she did if she thought I was a "puritan" in my younger years. I find it just as difficult to talk to someone about something bad or personal if I don't think they've been through similar - what is their reality going to be? - NONE. People have opinions and viewpoints based on their own experiences in life. Just as I cannot fully understand the effects of being raped has on a woman, since I've never been raped. I can IMAGINE the horribleness, but I cannot FULLY grasp what that person experienced.) Is she making this up? Is it only her imagination that's what she felt? That was her fear in telling me herself, instead of me having to find out through all the various eyes and ears I had on her. Here's my personal take: When someone tells me a life experience, I don't "DOUBT" them. It's THEIR experience. I wasn't there. I have to take them at face value. I get that you are not outright calling me and my daughter a Liar. That would be uncivil of you. But by doubting someone's word, is questioning the validity of what they have said (or in this case written). Here's the definition of DOUBT: To suspect that something is not true, likely, or genuine, or that somebody is not sincere or trustworthy. Sure we can get all into the semantics - but I go by definitions, not your personal meaning of the word. |
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| Post #12 Nov 22 2007, 04:44 PM |
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It is not a matter of not taking people at their word about their life experiences. As I said, I believe that you daughter easily could've really thought that her impression of you being a goody-two-shoes was her motivation for not talking to you. I am sure that your added part about her fear of your being mad at her would be an even more significant part of her perceived rationale. However, I still doubt that even the combination of the two is the full motivation. Having raised my own two to adulthood, and having worked with thousands of other kids over the years, leads me to believe that the motivation is a lot more complex than that and to believe that your daughter honestly believes she has completely and accurately related to you her motivation. I am equally sure that, had you told your daughter about your indiscretions, she still would not have confided in you. The fear that you would've been mad at her would still be there, as would be the other parts of her complex motivation. After all, since she did say that she was afraid to confide to you, why would you now expect that she would ultimately confide her entire motivation for not talking to you--one she likely was not willing to share even with her own conscious mind. On the DOUBT issue. I do not DOUBT her life experience. I never said I did. I have no reason to. I do DOUBT the motivation that she was willing to reveal to you, especially considering that she was not originally forthcoming about her experience. Again, why after she was not forthcoming about actions earlier, would one not doubt her forthcomingness about her deeply felt motivations regarding what they will or will say to a loved one. The bottom line is that is still doubt that (even with the addition of the fear of your being mad) the motivation your daughter shared is the full picture. So much so, that, even if you had told her about your past experiences and she loses the ability to use the goody-two-shoes rationale, I still believe that, initially, she still would not have confided in you. I sense that you might still think that I think someone is lying. Even going with the definition you choose to use for doubt, my doubting the motivation does not mean I think your daughter is lying. It is human nature--even more so for kids--to hide one's full motivations for one's actions, even from one's self. To doubt someone's expressed motivations is not necessarily to think they are being deliberately untruthful or are lying. I hope you don't still think that I think anyone is lying. I hope you don't still think that I am doubting at all what your daughter says she did. I am, however, still doubting the expressed motivations, related both from the original post and this last one. And that is an important doubt. Because, unless one is willing to accept that the sole motivation for your daughter not confiding in you was your not having shared with her your indiscretions, one cannot accept the conclusion that parents should tell their children about their drug use, if any. And, that is my point: telling you kids about your past drug use only increases the chance of them doing drugs. It does not increase the chance that they will talk to you about their drug use. |
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| Post #13 Nov 23 2007, 05:02 PM |
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Eye95, I remembered another part of this whole issue with my daughter. She was going to talk to my then boyfriend about it because she knew he had done drugs in his younger years. Somehow while they were talking about his drug use, it didn't come up about mine. So, I take my daughter at her word. And I really don't get into all the motivations behind why someone did or did not do something. After all was said and done, all I really, truly cared about was that she'd learned her lesson and that there was a resounding pop when she pulled her head out of her behind. And since she hadn't come to me directly and I found out from her co-worker (one of my peers) she got in big, big, big trouble. She would have only gotten in big trouble if she'd told me herself. Just the way I am. |
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| Post #14 Nov 23 2007, 06:35 PM |
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| One thing we have to remember about ALL parenting advice is that one size does NOT fit all. Still, there's certainly a good deal of advice where one size fits MOST. |
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| Post #15 Nov 24 2007, 12:21 AM | hamsters |
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I'm with Eye on this one. And yes, there is no 'one size fits all' but there is common sense. Our children are curious beings. But, I don't believe that to be a good and honest person means you have to literally say everything that you know and divulge information that is not helpful to certain situations. No one wrote in stone that being honest parents means having to tell all your secrets to your children. As a child development specialist, I can tell you for certain that most parents tell their children or share certain information to 'get closer' to their children and 'feel' like they are 'friends'. You would share such information with a friend. Your child is not your friend and vice versa and certain boundaries must remain for your children to view you as the parent, and yes that means the authority figure. Being the authority figure does scare your child, hopefully, because when they transgress in some manner, they know they will have consequences from the authority figure. Most kids that make mistakes don't want to face the authority figure because most of us don't want to face the consequence. Simple as that. Whether or not you share 'honestly' with your child, they most likely don't want to face you when they mess up. Eye is also right when he states they usually sharing such information does give your child the false impression that since you have survived the incident(s) then they most likely will as well. They are not developmentally advanced enough to visualize all the work you may have gone through emotionally to overcome the poor choices you made in your life (drug use, etc.). Their immature and youthful minds only see the fact that all is now well. I have told my husband to never tell our son, ever, he was a pot-head. It has no reflection on his and our lives today and is not helpful information for our son in any way. We discuss drug use and are an open family about our concerns in the world. But, we don't have to pull it back and relate it directly to us in an honest way. I'm not sure where this theory came about that for children to learn and grow that they have to know the past indisgressions of their parents. I think it actually diminishes your strength as a parent to reveal this type of information. I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic but it reminds me of the 'sex' topic and I also don't discuss my sexual past with my teenage son. It is is no use to him in making his own decisions. What I did or didn't do means nothing and should not be taken into account when he makes his own choices. |
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| Post #16 Nov 26 2007, 06:43 AM |
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| For the Panel: Would your answer change if we were talking about cigarettes and not illegal drugs (ie - taking the illegality out of the equation)? |
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| Post #17 Nov 26 2007, 01:20 PM |
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That's kinda moot, since my kids saw me smoke as they grew up. I regret that. They both have smoked, and I blame myself. My parents both smoked. They would carefully explain to me, between puffs of smoke, why smoking was wrong and that, even though they smoked, I shouldn't. They were addicted, or they would stop. (They did try many times.) From my POV, they seemed to have weathered the smoking OK, so I should too. I am sure my kids had a similar reaction to my hypocrisy. Again, I regret that. Had my smoking been limited to my childhood and my children had not, therefore, witnessed it, I would not discuss it with them. My transgressions (or any individual lacks thereof) are no business of my kids. Worse than that, sharing my bad or good behavior only makes my bad behavior look survivable, not that bad, and downright attractive. |
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| Post #18 Nov 27 2007, 01:16 AM |
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I think I might be somewhere in the middle on all of this... I know for sure that there are certain things I would never want to talk to my children about. There are certain things in ones past that can only damage you in the eyes of others, no matter how much you have recovered, or how long ago it happened. However, as a follower of Christ and avid reader and follower of the Bible, I think the example given is that we truly ought to learn from the mistakes of others. The Scriptures are filled with examples that we ought not to follow, but learn from. (1 Corinthians 10:1-13 comes immediately to mind) On the other hand, the book of Proverbs is written (the vast majority anyway) as from a father to a son, imparting wisdom and truths about life and the world and how one should live in the fear of the Lord, and yet never once are the father's own transgressions named anywhere in the book. So perhaps, as a general rule, learning from the mistakes of others is the ideal. But perhaps within the confines of the family it is best to keep your dirt to yourself and find examples of others to use as teaching tools. |
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| Post #19 Nov 30 2007, 07:41 PM | hamsters |
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To tie onto my previous post and the new twist about cigarettes... No, I would not tell and I haven't told my son I smoked cigarettes just like I mentioned we haven't mentioned anything about previous drug use. It is not business of his what mistakes I made in my past. We have always raised him with a very negative view of cigarettes and smoking and we didn't need to refer to my own mistakes. He saw with his own eyes the effects it had on his grandfather who always smelled, coughed...we all know the effects of smoking. His grandfather died after a heart attack and stroke and we definately attached the long term effects of his smoking to what happened. That was enough of a life lesson witnessed and he had no reason to know about my mistakes. I'm still firm that, like I said "It has no reflection on his and our lives today and is not helpful information for our son in any way." |
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| Post #20 Nov 30 2007, 07:45 PM | hamsters |
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To gentry, I prefer to lead by 'good' example as opposed to 'bad' example. You are right, we can identify and note for our children things we witness in the world around us as poor examples to follow. Why would anyone want their children to use their own 'poor example' as something to not follow? Just like it is always better to praise a good action to get it to be repeated than to punish a bad action in hopes it won't repeat. This doesn't reflect down the line issues if you are dealing with a child's poor behavior that is consistantly poor. At that point, dealing directly with the bad behavior is important. |
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