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| Underage drinking; Several questions for the panel | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 29 2007, 03:59 PM (869 Views) | |
| Post #1 Sep 29 2007, 03:59 PM |
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What are your thoughts on allowing teens to drink underage while supervised by adults? What should the penalties be for adults/parents who supply alcohol to teens? What do you think parents need to do to reduce underage drinking? Anyone for lowering the drinking age back down to 18? What kind of talk (regarding alcohol) did you get from your parents? What talk did you have (or will you have if your kids are younger) with your own kids? |
Civilian
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| Post #2 Sep 29 2007, 04:11 PM |
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1) It would depend on if the adult was the child's parent or guardian. 2) A parent should be allowed to supply their child with alcohol in their own home 3) Set an example by obstaining or drinking responsibly 4) Loser it way down - BUT - only if penalties for drinking or being drunk on public property are strictly enforced 5) Don't do it (from an alcoholic parent and an enabler, that was interesteing) 6) Make responsible choices |
Civil Servant
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| Post #3 Sep 29 2007, 07:59 PM |
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That depends on what you mean by drinking. If you are talking about wine with dinner or as part of a religious ceremony, no problem. If you are talking about trying to be cool and helping your kid host a wild party, then no. "Supply" smacks of dealing. Allowing a small drink in the non-party contexts above would be acceptable, but should not be characterized as "supplying." Be a parent. There isn't enough of that happening these days. Parents are more afraid of alienating their kids than of creating undisciplined monsters of immorality. 18-year olds are not equipped to drink responsibly. I doubt 21-year olds are either, but raising the drinking age further is not practicable. The same talk, or lack thereof, that CT-95 got. I always thought that a parent setting a child down and having a pre-planned talk about some discrete moral topic was incredibly stupid. My kids have no question whatsoever as to what my morality is or why I think it is important. A large number of the unplanned talks we had while they were growing up were constantly infused with morality. When parents have planned talks, those talks naturally come off as full of platitudes to which the parent does not really hold--and the kid clearly sees this artifice. Talks about morality need to be real. And, if one really holds the morals, they come up in day-to-day conversations, not just during "special talks". |
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| Post #4 Sep 30 2007, 12:04 AM |
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From what I heard (in Colorado) it is now considered child abuse to allow a child to drink - your child in your own home. Personally, when my daughter was in her late teens (18 - 19), I let her drink at home. I figured it was safer than being out at a party drinking. If her friends came over to participate - all keys were locked in the safe. No one was allowed to leave the house. And no one got drunk. This happened all of once or twice. And she stopped drinking at parties, because it wasn't taboo to drink at home. My mom did the same with my brothers and myself. However, as soon as I got in HS, she wasn't home anymore to monitor the drinking. There were really no talks about drinking since the majority of the family were alcoholics. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #5 Sep 30 2007, 08:05 AM |
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I am sorry to have to say this, but I disagree vehemently with the practice of allowing underage children to "party" with alcohol simply because some precautions have been taken. It sends the message--to the children--that society's standards, norms, and laws mean nothing, as long as one has his or her own reasons for violating them and has taken the precautions that he or she deems appropriate. It is a dangerous message and one that, lately, has been given all too often. |
Administrator
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| Post #6 Sep 30 2007, 08:37 AM |
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Eye95, I don't know if you are directing your post at me or not. But my point, which I quote, was that I did NOT want my daughter OUT at a party. The drinking I allowed her at home, with a few friends that were older than her, was no different than me having dinner guests and we all having a couple (as in two) cocktails. It was by no means a "party". It was a social event that protected my daughter and a few of her friends from being out drinking and driving. You can't watch your kid 24/7, and if I could save my kid and a few of her friends, I was more than happy to. And as I said, she stopped drinking when she was in or out of the house, so it served a purpose. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #7 Sep 30 2007, 09:13 AM |
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The fact that you cannot watch your kids 24/7 is IMO a poor reason to allow them to do at home what you do not want them to do out of your sight. You are telling that the behavior is OK, the law notwithstanding, as long as you do it in a way that you perceive is "right" or "safe." I vehemently disagree with that logic, because it is inherently unlimited. Anyone can break any law (or standard or moral or norm) simply because they believe that they have a better way, a better idea, a better circumstance. It is (and should be) illegal to serve alcohol to minors other than your own child*, and it is IMO immoral to teach underage children to "party" with alcohol--even at home, which is what I believe happens when parents sponsor such events in a vain attempt to prevent them from happening in an uncontrolled way. I would assert that the probability of such partying away from home increases as the child is now even more likely to break your rules because they have been given the clear message that it is OK for one to break the rules as long as one takes the precaution that one deems appropriate--regardless of the thinking of the individual (or society) who made the rule. |
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| Post #8 Sep 30 2007, 09:18 AM |
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| *I did not want to clutter my main point with this aside, so I am putting it in another post. If, as is mentioned in this thread, Colorado now prohibits parents from serving alcohol to their own children, I see this as an unconstitutional restriction of freedom of religion. While I would follow such a law to the extent that I would not, for instance, serve a small glass of wine at Thanksgiving to my child, I am certain that the courts would take a dim view of not allowing minor children to participate in religious ceremonies that involve wine. |
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| Post #9 Sep 30 2007, 04:52 PM |
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Eye95 - I agree with most of what you're saying. I'm curious as to what talk (if any) you had with your kids. You imply that you didn't have a "talk" and that you more or less lead by example. What so you think should be done to reduce underage drinking (religious uses excluded)? |
Civilian
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| Post #10 Sep 30 2007, 06:26 PM |
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I already posted about having "talks." I don't like discrete talks. You solve it the way you solve any problem involving inappropriate behavior by kids: effective parenting. |
Administrator
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| Post #11 Oct 1 2007, 10:43 PM |
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| I want my children to follow the law, and thus I do not serve them alcohol (outside of religious observation). However, if I were making the law, parents would be allowed to determine what thier own child (not someone else's child) could do in their own home. I would intorduce alcohol to them as I would any other activity, when and if I thought it was appropriate and could be handled with the requisite maturity. Outside the home, the government can set general ages for things but in the home, short of clear abuse, I think that is the definition of parenting. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #12 Oct 2 2007, 07:46 AM |
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Yes, I wanted my child to follow the law also. So I made a decision based on what was safest for my child. Drink at home supervised or drink at a party. Either she's getting in a car to drive or one of her friends is - and I have no assurance that the driver isn't drunk or even just impaired. When I allowed my daughter to drink at home with her friends the friends were over 18 (as was my daughter) and I didn't need permission from their parents. And I'm sure if I'd spoken to the parents, they would have been happy that I was providing them a safe place to experiment. (And if I remember correctly one of them was 21 and thought it was a good idea so she also wouldn't be out in a car after having a drink or two.) I did what I felt was the best option in a bad situation. And as I said in my first post on this subject - since it wasn't taboo for my daughter to drink at home, she stopped drinking when she was out. When I allowed my daughter to drink - it wasn't an abuse issue - that law has only recently been passed and I don't know if it's national. I only heard about it because I was having a similar conversation while I was visiting Colorado. So, you won't allow your kid to drink at home. More than likely they'll drink when they are out with friends. I'd rather not risk loosing my kid in a car accident, if I have any way of preventing it. And I did have a way, so I took it. My daughter is now 21 and even though it is legal for her to now drink. I still hound her about being out and drinking. And she always has a designated driver. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #13 Oct 2 2007, 05:24 PM | hamsters |
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I'm kind of shocked at some of the responses on this thread. Why not tell your kids "No Drinking at all"? Because you know they are going to do it anyway? Why would your kid disobey you and participate in something illegal at their age? I think people who drink themselves have a harder time laying down the law with their kids. True my son is only almost 15 and not close to any kind of drinking age. I know he tried it because it was presented to him--and he hated it--nothing worse than straight Vodka to kill an interest in drinking. This reminds me of a conversation I had with an aquaintance a number of years ago when she said "you might as well get used to the fact that your kid is going to do all the stuff you don't want him to do" and have a plan. With my kid, like eye-95 said, we don't do lectures, we have normal conversations about all kinds of things that impart very strongly our values and morals. Also, I don't accept that just because kids/teens are going to do something that it is ok. It is not ok whether it is here, there or somewhere else. And, yes I'm being judgemental here, it's not ok at my house so if they want to drink they will have to do it somewhere else. What do I do about my kid? He isn't allowed where drinking is permitted and he knows that. We dealt with the house he was at when the drinking occured and the parent was a very weak father who didn't even discipline his kid for bringing out the vodka (by the way, they were all 13 at the time). Fact is that we don't drink as a family, other than religious/holiday special occasions, so the ethic in our home is not to over-imbide for any reasons. Drinking is not seen as 'fun' or a way to let out stress or any other reason people who drink may like to drink. Some people say they like the taste--ok for those of you who enjoy the taste component. But, most people drink to de-stress, to relax and feel the buzz. That concept is not ok in our home or out of our home. Recently some people we know said their kids drove up to Canada, we are just miles away, to drink because the age limit is only 18 there. These are people I respect and I really had to figure out why this was ok with them. I know they don't see drinking as dangerous or harmful. But, at a young age (under 21) drinking can impair judgements when minds are not yet fully formed. So, even if you think drinking is an ok recreational activity, the fact that it impairs for an already not yet fully actualized human being (teen) only adds to the probability for some kind of diaster somewhere. I want my kid to BE the designated driver, not have one. I want my kid to be the one who is safe and have people want to be around him for that comfort zone. So far I'm seeing that path coming to fruition. If there is any evidence to counter that, there will be consequences. |
Newbie
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| Post #14 Oct 2 2007, 05:54 PM |
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| I do drink in my home. I'm of age. I think it can be just as good of an example to show responsible behavior when drinking as no drinking at all. My kids will know that they can't drink until they are legally able to do so. They are not legally allowed to drive until the age of 16, but I won't put aside my car until then. Same with sex. My husband and I partake, but my kids will know that we are legally married and allowed to do so, they are not. The whole thing, to me, is showing respect for the law and authority. Sure, you can say I'm naive if I think my kids won't be out drinking, messing around, before they leave home. I hold them to that standard, and it's amazing how much you get out of people if you don't lower the bar before they've even reached it. If they stumble along the way, we'll deal with it as it comes, but I'm not compromising our values, or the law, because I "think" my kids may do it anyhow. |
Civilian
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| Post #15 Oct 2 2007, 06:03 PM |
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What are your thoughts on allowing teens to drink underage while supervised by adults? I believe that young people today have the autonomy to make too many decisions for themselves, and if young people feel that they have permission to do it while parents are around, what is to keep them from taking the initiative when they are NOT around? What should the penalties be for adults/parents who supply alcohol to teens? There are already penalties in place for adults who supply alcohol to underage kids. They are even stiffer if the person for whom the alcohol was provided causes death or injury as a result of intoxication. Perhaps these penalties are different from state to state, but according to what I have found in Michigan, anyone providing alcohol to a minor is subject to a criminal penalty (first offenses include fines of $100 and imprisonment for up to 60 days). Similar penalties occur for hosting a party where a minor drinks. If a minor is injured or dies, the host can be found guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for up to 10 years and fines of up to $5000. http://www.umich.edu/~caps/c.alcohol.law.html What do you think parents need to do to reduce underage drinking? COMMUNICATE more with their kids. I have already had talks about alcohol with my son and he is only 10. I used to watch the Jane Pauley talk show every afternoon (It was only on for one season), and once she did a show about the consequences of underage drinking and driving. Her guests were kids who had been involved in accidents as a result of driving while intoxicated. One girl was driving with her best friend in the passenger seat, and the friend was killed. The driver and the friend's dad have been going all over the country talking to students at schools about her experience. COMMUNICATE and make the consequences seem as real to the child as you possibly can. Anyone for lowering the drinking age back down to 18? NO. What kind of talk (regarding alcohol) did you get from your parents? Surprisingly, my dad said, "If you are gong to drink, to it right here at home." Well, that just wasn't as much fun. I only got drunk maybe 4 times in my entire teen years, but it was never at home with my parents. It would have felt too weird. What talk did you have (or will you have if your kids are younger) with your own kids? Aside from watching the Jane Pauley Show with him, we talked about how to resist the temptation when your friends pressure you into drinking. |
Civilian
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| Post #16 Oct 2 2007, 06:37 PM |
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This is a false choice. Drinking at home does not preclude drinking elsewhere. Neither does not drinking at home cause drinking elsewhere.
Parents cannot legally give you permission to serve alcohol to their underage children. It is just plain illegal for you to serve underage kids (other than your own and only in some states and only under some circumstances).
Other than opinion based on guesswork (and possibly false choices), there is no way to conclude that not allowing kids to party at home will increase the chance of partying elsewhere. My opinion would be that allowing kids to party at home increases the chance that they will drink elsewhere illegally. After all, the message has been clearly sent that laws (including family rules) may be violated as long as the violator thinks that he or she has a better idea and has taken what he or she considers to be sufficient precautions. |
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| Post #17 Oct 2 2007, 07:07 PM |
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My choices were not false. I talked to my daughter. Maybe with other kids (meaning 19 as in my situation), kids will choose to drink away from home if given alcohol at home. But that isn't how it went with my kid. For her, since it wasn't taboo (not allowed), then she actually chose to stop drinking while out at parties. I'm sorry if you don't like the choices I made for my kid and myself. But it worked for us. Call us "lucky" or whatever. But it worked - she stopped drinking at parties. Which was the goal I was going for. And I'm not saying this works with all kids. It worked with mine and mine alone. And it also worked for me as a kid - I didn't have to drink at parties, since I was allowed to drink at home - there was no need for me to sneak around to get alcohol. And with me it worked. I'm not an alcoholic and I don't use alcohol in excess. All I've done is share my experience. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #18 Oct 2 2007, 07:10 PM |
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A false choice is a flawed logical argument. When it is presented that kids will either drink at home or drink elsewhere, that is an example of the logic error called "false choice." Other possibilities exist: Drinking at home could cause drinking elsewhere. Not drinking at home might result in not drinking elsewhere. I was merely pointing out a flaw in logic. |
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| Post #19 Oct 2 2007, 07:51 PM |
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I don't consider my logic flawed since I got the results I (the mother of my child) was looking for. I'm not looking for approval. And I'm not looking for acceptance of my choice. I was sharing my own life experience and that was it. I did not ever say = all you parents should try this, because it worked for me. Each parent and child has a different relationship because each parent and child is different. I consider myself very fortunate that my solution worked for my daughter and myself. She's still alive and did not die in a car accident due to alcohol. Which I understand is one of the leading causes of death in young drivers. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #20 Oct 2 2007, 08:23 PM |
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Here is an excellent site on logical fallacies. Link on Logical Fallacies If someone points out a logical flaw in an argument, it is not intended as a comment on the person making the argument, on the truth of anything he or she has said, or on the conclusion (which may yet be valid). It is a comment on the logic only. Logical fallacies are common. However, it is worth our while to learn them so we do not unintentionally use them. Another name for "false choice" is "false dilemma," as it is called in this article. Enjoy the reading! |
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