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| Corporal punishment in schools; New Thread | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 24 2007, 05:43 AM (1,527 Views) | |
| Post #21 Sep 25 2007, 05:46 AM |
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Who talked about withholding food? |
Civilian
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| Post #22 Sep 25 2007, 06:32 AM |
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BadRabbit, This is what I am referring to. Also, your pun was not civil. You implied that I punched my daughter. You need to not take my words and change them into something they are not. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #23 Sep 25 2007, 06:39 AM |
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My friend does not spank her daughter and I don't think she sees violence on TV (at least not at mommy's) but said daughter hits her mom when ever she doesn't get her way. It may have nothing to do with seeing violence. It may have everything to do with being in two homes because daddy decided to leave mommy. Maybe the violence that kids display only has to do with being angry with mommy and daddy for schlepping them around to the other parents house on a constant basis. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #24 Sep 25 2007, 07:23 AM |
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Dinner is not a privilege therefore it's not something one would revoke. I did not imply that you punched your daughter. It was a silly attempt at humor given the topic on hand. Note to self: Substitute the word "one" in place of "you". A general "you" is frequently mistaken for an actual "you". |
Civilian
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| Post #25 Sep 25 2007, 08:50 AM |
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You know, yesterday I had a brilliant (by my standards) response typed up into the reply box, and then I accidentally closed the tab containing my brilliant response. I didn't have time to type it over again, so that composition has pretty much disappeared forever into the intergalactic bit bucket. From now on I am going to type any brilliant responses into WordPad and save them until they are officially posted. As a refresher, the reason this was brought up was a story that appeared on my local news station about a city commissioner who proposed bringing back the paddle in schools. Not that he, as a local commissioner, has any power to make that happen, but he wanted to create a dialogue. It happened to come up about a week after a state representative proposed allowing teachers to pack heat in the classroom. http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=81290 Incidentally, the article states that 20 states still allow corporal punishment in schools. Mine is not one of them. You know, there used to be a time when parents and teachers saw eye to eye (no pun intended) on appropriate behavior and consequences, when society had certain expectations of conduct and respect and adults as authority figures worked together to teach our youth that code of conduct and to be sure that it was followed. A swat on the rear will not cause children to become violent. Many generations of children have learned that certain behaviors reap certain punishments. In fact, in the 19th century, students who were disrespectful or misbehaved were given the priveledge of going out to the woods and choosing their own switch with which the teacher would swat their bottoms. Students who didn't do their work were made to sit or stand with their nose in a corner of the room. What became of that? Out of that kind of punishment came self discipline, respect, and some of the most productive and courageous citizens of our time. So Rabbit, I agree. Teaching respect should begin in the home. Disciplining and punishment should be the parents' responsibility. But the reality that we have to face is that they don't! It ain't happenin' and it ain't gonna. (Redneck in me coming out here!:) ) As Eye said, he has conferences with parents who honestly don't see that their children should be expected to do as they are told. Teachers simply can no longer rely on parents to work with them to enforce rules and expectations. I personally blame the anti-establishment mentality that was prevalent in the 1960's and 70's. They took spanking out of schools and now they are trying to legslate parental spanking officially as abuse. The young people who took part in that revolution against authority are now the adults responsible for not enforcing authority over today's youth and allowing them to be autonomous out of control brats who feel entitled to do and say as they please without consequence. And don't get me started about the parents who are simply too busy with their OWN lives to bother to sit down with their children and teach them right from wrong and respect and manners. Either they are working 60+ hours a week and bowling on the weekends or they are too busy with their newest stud or honey or the kids are bouncing between the divorced parents' houses where all the rules, expectations, and consequences are different and the kids don't know what is expected of them half the time anyway. So one cannot realistically expect to place the responsibiltiy squarely on the shoulders of the parents and tell them that they need to step up and be better parents (unless you are Dr. Laura.) The fact of life is that that reasoning will be thrown right back into your face and you will get responses such as, "You don't have the right to tell me how to parent my child! It's none of your business! How DARE you tell me I am a bad parent!" etc etc Last year my son's bus driver told me that she was afraid to stand up to the high schoolers on her bus because they were bigger and taller than she is. She had problems even with the elementary kids, and my son begged me to pick him up at school so that he woudn't have to deal with all the obnoxious behavior on the bus ride home. She would stop the bus in a parking lot and refuse to get underway again until the misbehavior and disrespect ceased. She called parents. She had conferences with parents, the transportation director, and the principal. The transportation director sent letters home by mail to each student's parents reminding them that the transportation rules are in place for the students' safety as well as that of others on the road and they are expected to be followed. NOTHING WORKED. When I was a kid, my bus driver was a man to be feared. He was tall, strong, and had a gruff no nonsense voice. He would stop the bus dead in its tracks and the kids immediately became silent. He stood up, his head almost touching the roof of the bus, walked seat by seat and barked orders, "Pick up that trash. Sit up straight. No more funny business." Then he got back to his driver's seat and the rest of the ride was peaceful. So yes, fear can be productive. Have you ever decided NOT to misbehave because you KNEW you were going to catch hell for it when your mom or dad caught you? What about the principal? Being sent to the principal's office USED to make kids cringe. (Now, it's practically a badge of honor.) So just the mere PRESENCE of the paddle hanging on it's hook on the wall may be enough to make a child at least apprehensive about answering the temptation to act out, be disrespectful, or to misbehave. When I was in elementary school (which went up to 6th grade) our principal was also one of those commanding figures we did not cross, much like my bus driver. One week in my 4th grade year, the fire alarm was set off and we all had to evacuate the building. The fire dept came and left, and we all went back inside. A couple of days later, it happened again. Only this time, the janitor put ink on the handles of all the alarms, so the perp could be identified. I remember the principal calling him out of my classroom and through the window in the door we watched him get paddled. I even remember the kid's name. After I "graduated" 6th grade, I asked my principal if he had ever had to use the paddle since then, and his response was "no." |
Civilian
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| Post #26 Sep 25 2007, 09:27 AM |
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Nikki, You are so spot on. The year that I took a bus to school, you did not misbehave on the bus. Period. When I was in the 6th grade, one of the boys in class cut a chunk of my hair. I yelled at him. I got sent to the principal for yelling. And I don't remember anything happening to the kid that cut my hair. Personally, the kid should have gotten a good paddling and had to get a buzz cut. My daughter got bounced back and forth between daddy and mommy - but on an ever 3 + month basis, not daily or weekly. By 3 1/2 she knew the difference between mommy's and daddy's rules. It would usually take about a week or so to get her grooved back into mommy rules. But it wasn't undoable. My hubby grew up with "if you get spanked at school, you will get spanked at home". No questions. His parents felt that if the school saw fit to spank him, then he'd get the same punishment when he got home. That's when parents and teachers saw eye to eye. Teach the kids that the same rules apply at school and at home. I think it was the Psych influence in schools that took the spanking out of schools. Society has turned into "it's all about me and my wishes". It doesn't matter anymore how one person's actions or lack of affects another person. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #27 Sep 25 2007, 11:58 AM |
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I have to agree that I don't believe spanking is violence, it's punishment. Fear of punishment is not the same as fear of the person as a whole. If you walk the line, you don't need to fear. If you stray, you better watch out. I loved my father, but I never wanted to see his anger directed at me. I remember being spanked by him only once. It made a deep enough impression that I knew I didn't want it to happen again. I didn't fear my father, but I feared my father's discipline. Major difference to me. My kids are gonna know that we as parents, and teachers, call the shots. Do as you are told, no problem. Stray, and you have consequences. Spanking, to me, is a last resort, but it is an option. I don't agree that spanking begets violence. There's a difference between seeing some guy getting his face rearranged by someone else, and spanking. Spanking, in my opinion, should be done out of love, not anger. Like Goofball said previously, her daughter knew what she was doing was wrong, knew why she got the spanking. I get tired of people making those that spank, feel like criminals for disciplining their children. It's not illegal. It's not immoral. It's not barbaric. It's another tool to use when rearing children. Some may opt to not use it. That's fine. The topic at hand is spanking in school. It may ruffle my feathers a bit at first to think of someone else spanking my child, but I think it would be something that I could get behind if my child did something to deserve it. |
Civilian
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| Post #28 Sep 25 2007, 12:03 PM |
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| It's all on a continuum. Will rare spankings make your kid an axe murder (ie - more violent) or cower in fear from their parent? Probably not. But I still believe that the more a child sees violence and agressive behavior as a means of resolving conflict, the more likely the child will exhibit that same negative behavior. Just like if a child watches his father verbally/physically abuse his mother, the more likely the child will grow up to be an abuser himself. To state once more, it's all on a continuum. |
Civilian
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| Post #29 Sep 25 2007, 12:19 PM |
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ChelleDawn, Thank you. My daughter, like you with your father, knew I meant what I said. Years later when she was doing similar to what caused the spanking, all I said after three times to tell her to stop, was to remind her that a spanking could be forthcoming if she did not mind my words. She stopped the bad behavior. My daughter was never afraid of me, nor did she ever fear me. Watching a parent abuse a spouse is so much different than watching your sibling get a spanking. I'm 3 and 4 years younger than my brothers. I watched/heard my father spank my brothers. I did not fear my father. But I sure as heck respected that he meant what he said when he said it. Spanking in schools: I think it's a necessary thing since parents aren't being responsible for their children. I'm sure most schools know that if they send a note home, nothing is going to happen. So the schools have to take it into their own hands. My daughter was never spanked at school. But if she got in trouble for something, her school(s) knew I'd be all over it. I was never one of those parents that said: my child couldn't have done what you say, she's/he's an angel. |
Civil Servant
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| Post #30 Sep 25 2007, 12:24 PM |
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Spanking, in your opinion, is aggressive, violent, and negative behavior. In mine, it's discipline. So when you're looking at it from the point of view that it's violent and aggressive behavior, rather than a disciplinary action, you will get another view. I don't mind thinking that my children may grow up to spank their kids as a disciplinary action. Fine. That's the way I see that it should be. I don't believe he's going to go kicking homeless people on the street just because he got spanked when he was young. That's not a plausible leap to make, in my estimation. I know, BadRabbit, that you didn't say that, but I don't believe it makes kids more violent because they were spanked. Spanking has been around for a very long time, and I don't think it's made a generation, or generations, of random acts of violence. You see a lot of that now, where kids seem to be desensitized to violence. Via tv, games, what not. Also, those same tv's, games being babysitters, I believe, has contributed more than spankings ever have. If there was more spanking, not beating, than I see a lot of the disrespect for authority go away. If parents were actively parenting, and actually there, then I see a lot of the disrespect and apathy dissipate. This is just one Okie girl's musings, so take it with a grain of salt. |
Civilian
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| Post #31 Sep 25 2007, 02:40 PM |
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It seems that the idea being railed against here is not true discipline, but abuse. Abuse is done out of anger. It is largely reactionary and not done in any kind of rational manner. Spanking CAN be abusive - trust me. I was "spanked" well into my teenage years, but it was very abusive and very destructive and I still battle the effects of it. True discipline, however, is done out of a reflection of the image of God in man. Our parents shape, in every way, what we believe about God. And how we discipline our children ought to be a reflection of how God disciplines us. Discipline is to be done out of love and fear for the child. True discipline is a way of saying that, "If you continue to behave this way, it will result in real life pain." (by 6 years old, this phase of parenting should be well over, it probably should last only between ages 2-4, obviously longer in harder headed children) And what a parent is doing when they discipline in love is they are taking a world – a lifetime – of pain and suffering, and they are condensing it down to a few moments, and applying that to the child's backside. And what you are telling them is that this kind of behavior, in the long term, will produce this kind of pain. And if you learn not to do it now, you won’t have that long term, perhaps eternal pain later on. This reminds me of a sermon on suffering I delivered a few months ago... I'll post it in "My Take"... ***OT*** Eye - is there a way to add a forum within my own "My take" section for discussion of the My Take topics? That would be groovy... I'll post this in suggestions.. |
Civilian
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| Post #32 Sep 25 2007, 03:05 PM |
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I know that this topic has gotten a bit off course and expanded to the broader topic of spanking in general. So to bring it back on course, I ask the spanking supporters to answer this question - Would you find it acceptable for a teacher to have full discretion to spank your child? For me, if I spanked (I obviously don't. I keep my son locked in his bedroom closet when he misbehaves), I still wouldn't want a teacher to spank my child. Tell me what the child did and I and my wife will decide if the offense is spankable. BTW - Just kidding about locking my son in his closet. |
Civilian
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| Post #33 Sep 25 2007, 03:23 PM |
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Thanks BadRabbit for redirecting... you're right, we did get off track, and I added to it. In answer to your question - yeah.. that's a tough one.. Had you asked that 25-30 years ago I think my answer would be vastly different. But in today's PUBLIC School system I would answer with a vehement NO. |
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| Post #34 Sep 25 2007, 03:36 PM |
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| Does that mean if your kid went to PRIVATE school that you would feel differently? |
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| Post #35 Sep 25 2007, 03:37 PM |
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Yes, I was hoping that was a joke! :o I hesitate to jump to the conclusion that if spanking or paddling were to be allowed in schools again, that it would by any means be the primary form of punishment. It is my understanding that schools would adhere to the current discipline guidelines with regard to contacting parents in the case of misbehavior. If my child were making trouble in school, I am pretty secure in the knowledge that I would be involved and that I would be warned as well that a paddling could be in my son's future if his behavior doesn't improve. As I remember, as student had to get pretty far over the line if a paddling were to be administered (such as pulling the fire alarm and summoning the fire department for a false alarm.) But nonetheless, the line was definitely there, and when crossed, the student was aware that a paddling was definitely a future possibility. When that possibility was removed, the line was also removed as well. So to answer your question, no I would not have a problem with my son getting paddled at school providing all the above conditions were being met. If I were not contacted until after the fact, then I would have a lot of questions. If I decide that the paddling were not warranted, I would demand an apology to my son. |
Civilian
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| Post #36 Sep 25 2007, 06:40 PM |
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Posters need to be aware of context. If one responds immediately following another post and says "you," it will be contextually correctly interpreted as being aimed directly at the poster being responded to. YOU posted the first post and tried to imply that some link was being drawn by some between spanking and respect. I know of no one who rationally argues that spanking is for building respect. It is a disciplinary tool. So, unless you want to take issue with someone who has specifically made this linkage, it is rhetorically disingenuous to keep presupposing a non-existent argument. |
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| Post #37 Sep 25 2007, 06:48 PM |
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I don't doubt in the least that they can easily distinguish between loving parents punishing bad behavior and a TV character being violent against a peer. Kids get that the Mommy/Daddy-kid relationship is quite unique. Also, my kids did not watch TV in a vacuum. A lot of values were taught as we would constantly verbalize moral judgments while watching many of the immoral goings on that Hollywood feels the need to insert. Despite being spanked, my kids did not grow up violent. Quite the contrary. Despite my having been abused, I did not grow up violent. And, once again, no one here is advocating hitting in anger! |
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| Post #38 Sep 25 2007, 07:04 PM |
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In jr. high and high school, definitely no. In elementary school, I might've said yes years ago, but we (regrettably) no longer have community senses of right and wrong. Schools need to avoid any action that some segments of society will completely misunderstand. We should just be more willing to remove students who have not learned at home to generally comply with instructions. The above was a general answer. In response to the specific question, no, I would not have any objection to well-handled spanking that was not done in anger. I would just prefer that schools avoid the issue completely. But, then, I am a parent who would require his children to behave properly and who would ensure that any necessary punishment was meted out. Too many parents, when informed of reprehensible behavior by their kids, try to justify it or to, somehow, blame the teachers and staff. |
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| Post #39 Sep 25 2007, 07:54 PM |
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It would depend on the school, the teacher, and a shared value system. But that would be a possibility, yes. |
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| Post #40 Sep 25 2007, 09:04 PM |
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I wouldn't want someone else to spank my child. If something they did was bad enough to warrant that level of punishment, I would want to be involved. In fact, because I want to be involved, it is less likely my id will do something to warrant severe punishment. I still think 6 is generally old enough to discipline in other ways. I am glad no one here advocates spanking while you are angry. |
Civil Servant
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